Wattage / # Speakers / Volume Question

[PotatoGunBandit]

This is probably a "stupid question," but I haven't been able to come up with a good answer for it, so...

You have X watts coming out of your amp that has two speakers and you get Y max volume. Do you get a larger max volume if you throw another speaker in the mix? I hear of people doing this all the time, but technically you should only be able to get the same max volume from X watts, right?

I know you can get into the quality of sound and such when you're talking about how hard you drive speakers and get their cones flapping, but I'm just wondering about the volume thing.

[PotatoGunBandit]

Nevermind, I found a decent answer.

The actual volume isn't changed when adding more speakers, but the perceived volume is. It seems louder if the waves are spread over more air, I guess.

[JohnnyDemonic]

PotatoGunBandit wrote:

Nevermind, I found a decent answer. The actual volume isn't changed when adding more speakers, but the perceived volume is. It seems louder if the waves are spread over more air, I guess.

it kind of depends on the amp, too... if the amp is rated at 100w x 2 channels @ 8ohms (50w per ch @ 8ohms) and you hook up 2 4ohm speakers you're increasing the load on the amp & that can blow your amp... it also typically means that your amp is going to push about 1/2 the wattage to the load (abot 25watts per channel, assuming 4ohm load on an amp rated for 8ohms).... in that scenario you'd have 2x the speakers with 1/2 the wattage to each pair

also, you are creating different loads by adding speakers & it depends on how you're wiring up the speakers to the amp... if you have 4 8ohm speakers wired in paralell (2 channels with 2 8ohm speakers on each channel) you are creating a 4ohm load on each channel... in that same scenario you could use 16ohm speakers & create 8ohms per channel

i doubt that answers your question, but it's something to keep in mind, especially if your amp is not stable below 4ohms

your best bet would be to run speakers that match the ohm rating & an amp that can deliver more power than the speakers are rated for (ie: if the speakers are rated at 25w I'd get an amp that pushes 50w per channel)... that will ensure that your speakers are not under powered & your amp isnt overloaded

[Jeff Anderson]

Speaker efficiency plays a big part in perceived volume. But more speakers equates more volume for sure.

[WuddaWaste]

Not just perceived volume. Actual volume.

IMO, speaker efficiency is the most overlooked metric in speaker drivers. Especially when talking about car audio nerds. A +3dB difference between two drivers means TWICE the volume for the same amount of power.

[PotatoGunBandit]

If I could run my AC30 with an extension cab and get more volume out of it, that would be ideal... I guess I can? Just seems like 30 watts isn't much power for 4x12 speakers. If I do get an extension cab, does it matter what the power rating for the speakers are (will I get better results if I use 15W alnico blues vs hellatone 30's (30W))?

I think I'm electrics-impaired. I just don't get it

[WuddaWaste]

If you're already running a 4x12 on 30W, you're underpowering your speakers. Adding another passive cab to that won't give you a whole lot more volume. You'd be better off micing the cab and putting it through your PA.

[PotatoGunBandit]

I'm running 2x12 and am wondering about adding another 1x12 or 2x12. Sounds like I need to sell the amp and get something a bit more ballsy.

Its a shame, I got this thing sounding great and unique... You win some, you lose some.

[Blacklair]

PotatoGunBandit wrote:

I'm running 2x12 and am wondering about adding another 1x12 or 2x12. Sounds like I need to sell the amp and get something a bit more ballsy. Its a shame, I got this thing sounding great and unique... You win some, you lose some.

I think you can run the signal through a power amp and more speakerage (In a series type thingy??) that way you preserve your sound and people will perceive your new balls whether they want to or not...

Experts!! am I right??

[PotatoGunBandit]

Not a bad idea, hmmm...

I wonder how much of a difference slapping a closed-back on the amp will make, might be able to squeeze a little extra juice out of her.

[PotatoGunBandit]

nevermind. closed-back is probably a bad idea with alnico blues.

[Jeff Anderson]

Closed back is going to sound way different.

Does this amp have an effects loop? You can run your fx loop signal to another amp, and power more speakers. Master/slave sort of deal.

[WuddaWaste]

In order to push through a power amp, you'll need a low-level (aka "line level") signal. I don't think the AC30 has one of those. As I was saying before, you'd probably be better off micing your output.

Stepping up into a 4-driver setup might help your volume issue. I don't really know. I'm gonna leave that up to the other experts.

[WuddaWaste]

Jeff Anderson wrote:

Closed back is going to sound way different. Does this amp have an effects loop? You can run your fx loop signal to another amp, and power more speakers. Master/slave sort of deal.

Don't you need to send the signal back as a "return" after the loop? I'm asking, not contradicting. The effects loop stuff has always confused me.

[PotatoGunBandit]

The amp's got an extension output meant for powering a cab and a 8/16 ohm switch so I can get that all worked out.

What I'm thinking is get another (1x12) alnico blue (15W) cab and hook it up. The amp actually runs 33W, so 11W per 15W speaker isn't a gross under-power.(?) Yay or nays? Seem like this would give me a decent volume boost and tone preservation? (I'm probably overpowering the two speakers in there anyways, I really crank the hell out of this amp).

[CrackGrammar]

Some of my favorite heavy bands use voxac30s. Refused shape of punk to come is recorded with one, rye coalition uses them. Just get an extension cab.

[juice]

This question is dependent on too many things, but in general, more speakers = more volume so long as you maintain the same impedance. This is just because you have much more speaker area to push more air volume. It'd be best to add an external cab with high sensitivity speakers for more volume.

Speaker sensitivity is often dependent on how much power you are putting through a speaker too. A lower load on a speaker (power wise, not resistance wise) means all speakers aren't heating up nearly as much (and subsequently, losing efficiency as well)

Personally, I'd say add 1 high sensitivity speaker. Celestion lists the sensitivity of the alnico blue at 100db, which is pretty high, so it's a pretty sensitive speaker.

What is the impedance of the speakers you have in your amp right now?

[PotatoGunBandit]

The 2X12 speakers are 16 ohms total - so this means I should be running the amp at 16 ohms (?).

So I guess I need a one 16 ohm speaker, and flip the Vox's ohm switch to 8 (runs the speakers in parallel for a total of 16 ohms). Ohman, electrics, yeesh.

[WuddaWaste]

From your AC30 manual:

Quote:

Extension: This speaker jack runs parallel with the internal speakers which are wired for 16 Ohms. The extension cabinet must be 16 Ohms.

http://www.voxamps.com/support/manuals/

[PotatoGunBandit]

I downloaded that guy not too long ago and was just checking it out - thanks for the heads up though. (The obvious things to do tend to escape me...)

[juice]

so you have two 8 ohm speakers in series?

Buy either two more 8 ohm speakers ($$$) or one 16 ohm speaker and run the speaker(s) in parallel with your cab and set it to 8 ohms.

[PotatoGunBandit]

That's what I'm guessing. The speakers don't explicitly say and I can't tell from any info out there - I should check out the Vox site though.

Thanks for the tips and brains guys.

[PotatoGunBandit]

Now to get a hellatone 30 or create a wall of blue, hmmm.

[Jeff Anderson]

PotatoGunBandit wrote:

Now to get a hellatone 30 or create a wall of blue, hmmm.

add something different.

[PotatoGunBandit]

Jeff Anderson wrote:

PotatoGunBandit wrote: Now to get a hellatone 30 or create a wall of blue, hmmm. add something different.

that's what I'm thinking - round it out a bit. I'd bet a closed-back hellatone 30 would be right nice. I'm broke for a while, so I can twiddle my thumbs over it in the meantime.

[CrackGrammar]

I have a 2x12 vintage 30 avatar cab if you want to try it out with your combo its 16ohms.

[PotatoGunBandit]

That would rock! Could I give it a go this weekend? I'm playing in good 'ole provo on saturday. I'd love to ring some ears at abg's.

[PotatoGunBandit]

Ha, I could leave collateral of sorts or something if you're worried about a stranger using your stuff... I guess I'd be really hesitant if the tables were turned, so if not, no worries.

[CrackGrammar]

I was more like thinking of bringing your amp over to try.

[PotatoGunBandit]

That's what I figured after your offer settled in. That'd be cool, I'd like to hear how it sounds.

[vanguard]

dude, an AC30 with blues in it should be blowing your shirt off at 4. are you sure it is running up to snuff? wattage has little to do with how loud an amp is. cele blues are REALLY efficient speakers, and the AC30's 30 watts are fucking brutal. i can't imagine needing more than that, as that amp should pummel your bassist and drummer in the mix before you even get it cooking.

[PotatoGunBandit]

You know, I doubt I'm running it at its full potential. Just with this thread I learned it needed to be on the 16 ohm switch (noob move, I know, I received the amp on 8 and left it there, I didn't know jack about this ohm stuff...). Anyways, I switched it over to 16 for these last couple practices and that alone brought out some crisp tone and more volume (may have just been the clearer tone making it seem louder).

The problem is I don't have a place where can play with the amp and my pedals to see how much juice I can get out of it and still keep the sound pleasant. I hear over and over again that ac30's sound better the more you crank them, especially with the blues, so I bet I can get it pretty loud and still keep it nice and warm. I just don't have a place where I can experiment with it. Every time me and the drummer get all loud and awesome and I start pushing / messing around with the amp at practice people start whining about the volume and rain on the rock parade, but then we play a show and I just can't get it loud enough without it getting brittle and screamy.

This last practice gave me some hope though. The drummer and I were rocking at a to-date epic loudness and the amp sounded great, so maybe I'm slowly but surely getting it there...

[PotatoGunBandit]

After last show, I think I've got it maxed out (I mean it can make ears bleed, but the sound quality goes to shit). I wouldn't be surprised if the amp just doesn't handle distortion all that well, its not meant for it. I'm pretty sure another speaker will help me rock the volume, yet keep the tone. Better start saving up my pennies.

[CrackGrammar]

PotatoGunBandit wrote:

After last show, I think I've got it maxed out (I mean it can make ears bleed, but the sound quality goes to shit). I wouldn't be surprised if the amp just doesn't handle distortion all that well, its not meant for it. I'm pretty sure another speaker will help me rock the volume, yet keep the tone. Better start saving up my pennies.

Are your tubes shot?

[PotatoGunBandit]

Tubes should be good, I replaced them not too long ago. Hell, maybe they are after the whole impedance thing though, hmm.

The thing with this amp is it doesn't sound all that hot if you want some mean distortion. Its sweet to put a pinch of growly dirt on top of your sound, but outside that I'm not a fan of the natural distortion. I'm mostly relying on pedals for the sound.

[CrackGrammar]

PotatoGunBandit wrote:

Tubes should be good, I replaced them not too long ago. Hell, maybe they are after the whole impedance thing though, hmm. The thing with this amp is it doesn't sound all that hot if you want some mean distortion. Its sweet to put a pinch of growly dirt on top of your sound, but outside that I'm not a fan of the natural distortion. I'm mostly relying on pedals for the sound.

Hmm.

[CrackGrammar]

After looking at youtube videos I think you might be onto something.

[PotatoGunBandit]

I want the tone of Vox and growl of Orange. That may be too much to ask though.

[CrackGrammar]

yeah, I am not a orange fan though.

[PotatoGunBandit]

I'll never have it.

I'm getting more of a Vox on roids, but with future roids that don't shrink your balls. I'm thinking a warm closed-back speaker is going to be just the ticket for this frankenstein tone.

[CrackGrammar]

I would keep the vox, and get another amp to ab/y it with.

[PotatoGunBandit]

Just listened to STP's Tiny Music and I'd bet some good money a hell of a lot of guitar tone on that album is pedals into an ac30...

I'm too poor for another amp, but some ab/y action would be nice.

[Renge]

I'm confused as hell now.

I always thought that the lower the ohms the less resistence which meant more volume. to me that means more actual amplitude. but I couldn't really say, cause I don't know much about how that stuff works.

[juice]

Renge wrote:

I'm confused as hell now. I always thought that the lower the ohms the less resistence which meant more volume. to me that means more actual amplitude. but I couldn't really say, cause I don't know much about how that stuff works.

It's more like riding a bike, you get maximum power when you have the perfect amount of resistance. If you are are riding a bike at 20mph, you can't make your legs go fast enough to speed up if you are in first gear, but if you are in the 27th gear, you can.

[Renge]

juice wrote:

Renge wrote: I'm confused as hell now. I always thought that the lower the ohms the less resistence which meant more volume. to me that means more actual amplitude. but I couldn't really say, cause I don't know much about how that stuff works. It's more like riding a bike, you get maximum power when you have the perfect amount of resistance. If you are are riding a bike at 20mph, you can't make your legs go fast enough to speed up if you are in first gear, but if you are in the 27th gear, you can.

... so you're saying the speakers resistance or ohm rating and wattage rating are like a transmission of sorts, distributing power based on the resistance threshold of any given amount of power being applied to said threshold?

[juice]

Renge wrote:

juice wrote: Renge wrote: I'm confused as hell now. I always thought that the lower the ohms the less resistence which meant more volume. to me that means more actual amplitude. but I couldn't really say, cause I don't know much about how that stuff works. It's more like riding a bike, you get maximum power when you have the perfect amount of resistance. If you are are riding a bike at 20mph, you can't make your legs go fast enough to speed up if you are in first gear, but if you are in the 27th gear, you can. ... so you're saying the speakers resistance or ohm rating and wattage rating are like a transmission of sorts, distributing power based on the resistance threshold of any given amount of power being applied to said threshold?

Yeah. An engine has specific RPM where it produces the most power. A Tube amplifier, or any other amplifier for that matter, has an output resistance. In a car, you'd ideally use a CVT to maximize your power to the wheels (note: Power...) With an amp, you use matched speakers. Of course, there's sometimes slight exceptions, and there's a couple more things involved to get a louder sound, but it's a general rule.

(Actually, Speakers are a bit closer to the size/weight of your wheels/gearing of the differential... and the transformer is the transmission, but whatever)

[PotatoGunBandit]

Ohms are important, I'll attest.

Ever since I switched that ohm switch on the back of my amp to where its supposed to be, my speakers be shooting aural rainbows. I noticed the difference, for sure.